On this episode, we ask how one can have an effect on change to UX design in giant organizations caught of their methods. Vitaly talks to Marko Dugonjić to seek out out.
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Vitaly Friedman: For him, all the pieces began with a passionate love for CSS and typography in early 2000s. He was a front-end developer and UX designer, then moved to the function of person expertise director. Working with loads of shoppers, comparable to Deutsche Telekom, SGS, Hrvatski Telekom, Font Bureau, L, Nationwide Geographics, and so many others. He additionally constructed a device known as Typetester, which has gained fairly a momentum within the 2000s and even past that, permitting designers and builders to check their topography within the browser.
Vitaly: Now, 5 years in the past, he moved from Zagreb, Croatia, the place he’s initially from, to Sacramento, California, the place he now could be working as a Director of Person Expertise at SymSoft Options. So we all know he’s an knowledgeable in UX, however do you know that he has been an avid fan of Acapulco Beaver’s Handball group from Zagreb because the age of seven and stays one up till in the present day? My Smashing associates, please welcome Marko Dugonjic. Good day, Marko. How are you doing in the present day?
Marko: Nice… I imply smashing, I suppose.
Vitaly: Wonderful. That’s fantastic to listen to. It’s fascinating as a result of we’ve these conversations each from time to time, speaking in regards to the that means of life and so many different issues. However one factor that actually excites me, and I feel it deserves a little bit of consideration, I’ve this unbelievable story of the way you truly simply fell in love with the online many, a few years in the past, the place you used to do one thing very, very completely different. And have a look at you now, work on enterprise purposes for a reasonably fancy firm. Are you able to inform us a little bit of that backstory?
Marko: Certain. It’s a bizarre story in a manner, however possibly it’ll give somebody an thought about methods to begin with fully completely different expectations about your profession in life and find yourself in, as you stated, in California. And so my story actually started after I tried to construct an internet site for, consider it or not, my canine, my kennel as a result of I used to breed canine. And at the moment, my full-time job was as a health coach.
Marko: In order I used to be working with individuals who would have rehabilitation wants or any kind of everlasting or non permanent incapacity, I additionally discovered about how individuals who don’t have the visible potential to make use of the online by listening to the online pages. And so one factor led to a different, and I used to be desirous about, “I’ve this web site for my canine. Is that this even accessible?”
Marko: And so what do you do in early 2000s? You discover a net discussion board the place actual net professionals reside, and also you begin asking questions on methods to enhance the accessibility of your web site. And it was actually simply my passion web site, and it’s virtually one thing that I’ve constructed out of my front-end or entrance web page software program, Microsoft FrontPage. I don’t know if you happen to do not forget that one.
Vitaly: Who doesn’t, Marko? Who doesn’t?
Marko: And I don’t know the way, however I by no means used tables for format, however I did. And that is most likely the primary time after virtually 20 years that I’m saying it, “I didn’t use tables, however I did use a bunch of frames.” It was a frameset that just about I used to create the header and the sidebar, and the footer. So I had 4 frames on that web page.
Marko: And naturally, it didn’t validate and all the pieces was actually horrible from [inaudible 00:03:45] perspective. However I hoped that the online design neighborhood would assist me. And I began researching and discovered about CSS positioning, and that was the very first thing that I mounted. After which, I discovered about Web Explorer as a result of on the time, I used to be utilizing Mozilla. I don’t know what was even earlier than Firefox. Perhaps Phoenix or one thing like that.
Vitaly: There was Netscape Navigator, in fact.
Marko: Netscape Navigator, yeah. I knew about it, however I feel I onboarded with the Mozilla kind of browser. However what occurred is that sooner or later, the online boards actually weren’t sufficient for, I suppose, my obsession with making issues good. So I began studying net requirements from the W3C web site, and I learn the specs as a result of I believed, “That is most likely what each net skilled does.” And so that is how I discovered about accessibility and net requirements and all of the stuff.
Marko: In order that was 2002, 2003. After which one factor led to a different, once more. I used to be collaborating in these net communities, and finally, folks from what in the present day is named Human Design Company from Zagreb, had a name identical to this one. And so they stated, “Hey, would you wish to be paid for what you realize?” And I used to be like, “What are you speaking about? I’m a health coach.”
Marko: However they did persuade me, after which I joined that unbelievable group. We simply had a lot enjoyable again within the day. And stayed with them for a few years, then moved on to an in-house place, and all the pieces else is just about normal. However I feel that second after I realized, “I do know one thing that someone’s keen to pay for,” was unbelievable for me. Once more, at the moment, it was nonetheless virtually like a passion to me. However quickly sufficient, it turned a occupation.
Vitaly: Proper. After which, in fact, you additionally ended up having your personal studio, which then finally, after a few years, moved you to this choice of possibly it’s a time to maneuver to or attempt to transfer to the US. How did that occur?
Marko: Properly, I feel what has all the time been following me is that I didn’t actually have any common plan. I knew what I wished to do day-to-day. I knew what I felt about tasks and work and expertise and all that stuff, however I didn’t actually have a common plan of transferring from this firm to a different firm after which to that firm. It was actually about possibly choosing good tasks, and good folks to work with.
Marko: And so after I had my studio, we turned fairly worldwide. And you realize that we additionally collaborated on a few tasks in Europe. And for me, it was actually for the previous couple of years in Croatia; it was actually simply 100% worldwide. And so one among our shoppers, and thru an excellent pal, Christina Portner, who additionally participated in a few of the Smashing actions, I feel she gave a chat and had a few articles for you guys.
Vitaly: That’s proper.
Marko: She launched me to Savita Faruki, who owns SymSoft Options along with her husband. And it’s a pleasant, small, family-run enterprise. And looking out on the tasks that they’d and nonetheless have, it simply made sense for me to maneuver over right here, and so I accepted the provide that they prolonged to me after that go to. The place I actually didn’t plan to get employed, however we had been simply discussing a few of the collaboration and possibly engaged on some tasks collectively, but it surely ended up being me turning into a director of the person expertise right here at SymSoft.
Vitaly: Proper. That’s an fascinating story, and in addition selected a journey that one can take from one place to a really completely different place. Now you’ve been throughout UX for now 15 or 20 years now. I don’t even know. Who counts at this level anymore at this level? And naturally, you’ve seen various stuff occurring by way of simply UX, I’d say.
Vitaly: We’ve been combating, as you could possibly most likely discover hundreds of articles stating that we have to have a seat on the desk. And it looks as if now, at this level in 2022, we’ve a reasonably stable seat at a desk. Do you assume that we’re in a spot the place we wished to be 15 years in the past? Is there nonetheless one thing lacking? The place do you see us as a neighborhood and simply as an business, I suppose, by way of the state of UX in the present day?
Marko: So I feel the there’s a few issues proper in there. It’s an fascinating and in addition advanced subject. So I feel we do have a seat at a desk; nonetheless, the horizon is now completely different. As a result of as you journey, you simply uncover different issues are behind the horizon. And so when you climb that first peak, then you definately reveal extra peaks to climb. So I feel that is the place we’re proper now.
Marko: And an enormous factor that no person actually talks about is that even IT or digital as an entire has had that drawback prior to now, of the seat on the desk. And so we simply now joined the group of people that may need higher entry to decision-making, but it surely’s nonetheless not on the degree the place we are able to actually instantly affect any choice, particularly in large firms and enterprises.
Marko: Clearly, that is the place I work at. Startups and youthful firms are barely completely different there. However enterprises or something huge, like large insurance coverage firms or large telecoms or monetary establishments, or the federal government, 90% of my shoppers are actually the federal government… these organizations have been round for years and tons of of years, even.
Marko: So previous methods and issues that led to the success that they’ve proper now are usually not essentially one thing that you must change, however fairly often, it’s also possible to change them by making use of appropriate organizational change administration ideas. So I’d say the problem that we’ve these days is simply common organizational change administration. That’s a sizzling subject.
Marko: And once more, it’s not simply the UX folks. I feel it’s the applied sciences normally or anybody who simply have this new manner of managing issues. I’d say digital entrepreneurs as effectively. So all of us, we’ve to sit down on the desk, however there’s simply this big job of driving and steering the group into no matter is subsequent, no matter is the long run.
Vitaly: Proper. That’s fascinating. Perhaps we should always dive into this a bit of bit extra in a bit of bit extra element. Simply because, in fact, we learn and see and listen to quite a lot of articles round UX, and plenty of of them are very a lot centered on conventional, I’d say, good all startups, digital merchandise, and so forth and so forth.
Vitaly: However on the identical time, I discover it fairly troublesome to even discover case research about enterprise UX. So possibly you could possibly truly share these insights about if you happen to do have this case the place you may need a seat on the desk, however you really need to vary the group. And organizations of that measurement are often very reluctant to these modifications, and other people don’t like to vary their habits shortly.
Vitaly: So what could be then your course of to make all of it a actuality, to determine a user-centric method in a comparatively tight and conservative and possibly even fairly dated, let’s say, setting?
Marko: Properly yeah, positive. I wouldn’t say essentially that the group is resistant to vary or that persons are not keen to vary. Simply, I’d say the quantity or the dimensions of the group is de facto your largest enemy as a result of you may affect solely so many individuals in your rapid circle within the group. After which some organizations are fortunate sufficient to have a large enough UX group or, extra broadly digital group that might even have a bunch of builders, resolution architects, enterprise analysts, and any kind of function that you can imagine in IT.
Marko: So it’s only a matter of how many individuals you may contact throughout the group with the brand new ideas, how many individuals are literally in a UX kind of undertaking, user-centered service, one thing like that. So the change doesn’t occur in the best way of infecting folks. You can not simply unfold the UX kind of virus to folks, they usually’ll all get it. It requires quite a lot of effort. It requires a custom-tailored method to communication.
Marko: Somebody who has a desk job and is in departments which can be understaffed, for that matter, they don’t essentially have sufficient bandwidth or capability. And it has nothing to do with the non-public choice of the person individual, however simply the organizational construction is such that you simply don’t have entry possibly, to everybody that you simply wish to. And naturally, it could require quite a lot of, quite a lot of day trip of the common day-to-day desk job for folks to even get educated.
Marko: So I feel the largest enemy is the dimensions of the group. So you must strategically decide and select your champions throughout the group. Individuals who, whoever reveals up in your open workplace or workplace hours, no matter you name it, assembly, that’s an excellent champion. Even when they’ve low maturity in UX, these are individuals who have the intent to vary one thing. And so strategically choosing and selecting folks, after which serving to them turn out to be virtually like a mentor throughout the group to the folks round them. And possibly you’ll have that division embracing extra of an interactive method to understanding finish clients.
Marko: I feel that is the best way to go. However once more, I don’t assume folks needs to be discouraged with that as a result of even 1% enchancment within the enterprise course of or in conversions or in optimization is… Vitaly, you and I work with net efficiency and conversions and E-commerce and all of the stuff, and 1% generally is a big enchancment.
Vitaly: After all. I’m questioning, although, simply what your manner of coping with a scenario is when you have got folks in entrance of you, possibly increased up the ladder in senior administration, who simply have a really completely different view on issues. Who very strongly look, in fact, at their information and their KPIs, at their enterprise metrics, and attempt to transfer them.
Vitaly: And the way would you then, in a case the place you, once more, should work with an organization which may not have a user-centric method in any respect and possibly don’t take into consideration the client expertise as a lot as they consider the monetary profit by the top of the 12 months? How would you then argue in these sorts of environments in regards to the function of UX or the significance of UX, or the significance of buyer expertise?
Marko: Properly, I feel the easiest way to promote one thing is to indicate them with a reside instance, with a sensible instance. And also you additionally know that every time we might come to a corporation and say, “Hey, let’s see what’s the issue there.” And also you and I labored with a significant German retailer couple of years again, they usually had been saying, “Hey, cellular isn’t performing rather well. Desktop is a lot better.” After which we realized that the typical go to to a cellular E-commerce resolution that they’d was about 50 years or one thing like that.
Marko: And so when you begin exhibiting off these numbers and say, “This web site is now sooner,” or, “This software program will shorten the time from thought to conversion,” simply, I feel efficiency is such an easy-to-use device to persuade folks to speculate into it, that it’s simply unbelievable… As a result of you may measure the earlier than and provide, and that is one thing that my group at SymSoft all the time does. We all the time do the baseline measurement, whether or not that’s the conversion charges, satisfaction, no matter, you identify it, seconds to load.
Marko: After which we take a look at and retest and retest and retest, after which you have got laborious details that you could truly tie again to greenback worth. And that is the way you persuade folks that it is a good funding. And once more, simply beginning small; virtually like while you work with a brand new chemical that’s harmful, in your automobile or no matter… they are saying, “Hey, attempt someplace the place it gained’t mess something up, like in a nook that no person sees.” And so we are able to additionally decide a pilot undertaking, a extremely small case examine, show that it really works, after which scale it as much as one thing bigger.
Vitaly: Would you say that it’s necessary to have a buy-in at this level? Or would you say, “Simply go forward, experiment. Construct a bit of prototype, possibly even a bit of bit in your spare time,” simply to persuade that that is working? Or do you assume that dedication from administration and inexperienced mild and approval is vital right here?
Marko: So I’d say that, and once more, that is my expertise. I don’t essentially assume that is one thing that occurs in each group… However for me, no matter labored, every time I used to be proactive and extra on the facet of, “Hey, let me do one thing in my spare time,” or, “Let me end the principle process earlier in order that I can truly work on the enjoyable stuff.”
Marko: Additionally, signaling to the administration that you’re proactive, that you’re self-driven, that you’re self-motivated, that you simply’re not ready for somebody to approve, that you simply’re not ready to be served or accredited or given the area. So I feel administration positively likes people who find themselves simply considering that manner.
Marko: And so that you mainly have two advantages. You don’t should ask anybody for permission; you may determine what’s the scope and what’s area obtainable for you and simply determine to do it. After which, if it doesn’t work, you aren’t even embarrassed. No one must know. But when it really works out, if it’s a pleasant prototype, if it’s a pleasant idea, you may positively current it to the higher administration.
Marko: After which once more, you get double credit score. You create one thing enjoyable, however you additionally present that you simply care and that you’re proactive and self-driven, and all these qualities that everyone ever all the time writes on the job posts, I suppose.
Vitaly: Proper. Properly, you probably did point out scope, and naturally, it’s a beautiful key phrase for me as a result of, in fact, I can virtually hear the voices within the again asking about methods to cope with scope creep. I imply, you’re working with very completely different organizations and, effectively, of actually large measurement. And finally, I’m positive there might be conditions the place late modifications are available, poor specs are in there, communication points, delays, and all of that.
Vitaly: So what could be your option to stop issues like this from occurring, the place you’re lacking deadlines due to the scope creep or poor estimates? What’s your course of in there to ensure that we don’t get in bother for delays and possibly underestimating the trouble wanted?
Marko: That’s actually an excellent subject. I feel there are two issues in there. So positively, if we underestimate, it’s fully on us, and there’s no… That’s very clear. It’s on us. We must always have had our due diligence earlier than the invention stage of the undertaking once we had been estimating. However this stuff occur, I suppose, to start with for everybody, till you have got sufficient expertise to maneuver from a one-page contract right into a 50-page contract.
Marko: And my pal, Eva Lucas from NetGAN, from Croatia, he stated as soon as to me, “Hey, we began with one web page for a contract. Now we’ve 70 pages,” or one thing like that. In order you’re extra skilled, you simply put extra issues within the contract and also you, I suppose, put extra issues into researching and estimating, and also you most likely monitor your hours, and you know the way a lot time for every characteristic is required. In order you develop extra mature within the subject, there’s much less stunning with regards to estimates.
Marko: Now, the second subject, which is the scope creep, often in enterprise organizations, they have already got this sort of… they mitigate that with, once more, different contractual clauses. Perhaps one thing that you could talk early on is the unanticipated effort price range. In order that may be 10 or 20% of the budgets that’s allotted to the undertaking, that we don’t should spend, however that is our contingency plan.
Marko: After which one other factor that’s very, very helpful, and that is what my director of undertaking administration all the time enforces, is common conferences. Each week, we’ve a minimum of weekly conferences. If not, day by day stand-ups with the undertaking administration on the consumer facet. And we’ve a extremely detailed standing report that we feature over week after week after week. And we replace it, and share it with everybody.
Marko: And we aren’t actually afraid to boost any previous dangers. So every time we see that there’s a delay in reviewing and offering suggestions, we’ll put it out within the standing report, change the inexperienced mild to yellow mild, and simply say to everybody, “Hey, we expect that that is one thing that may get uncontrolled.”
Vitaly: Yeah. In order that’s a really fascinating level for me as effectively as a result of I used to be working with an organization the place this turned out to be fairly a helper. So actually having a extra clear overview, I suppose, of what our expectations are, what the method goes to be, once we anticipate some suggestions and how much suggestions we anticipate as effectively. And one factor that was actually vital and helpful at this level was to really clarify to shoppers that late modifications are costly.
Vitaly: Late modifications are troublesome to implement, and they’re costly as a result of if you happen to’re coming from a really completely different business and also you’re anticipating a product to be delivered, you won’t know simply how costly, how troublesome it’s to really make these modifications afterward since you don’t have this technical information essential. So explaining this early on, having this clear communication channel is certainly, I feel, fairly helpful in some ways truly.
Vitaly: From my finish, I feel, and one factor I truly positively wished to cowl in the present day is, as a result of that is one thing that comes up fairly a bit and most not too long ago is… you’ve been, once more, on this business for fairly a while and also you had your personal head the place you had your personal company, and now you’re working for a corporation. What do you assume, particularly for individuals who may need just some years of expertise in UX… wanting again, what do you assume could be the suitable option to simply assure private development within the firm? Negotiate wage, get extra possession, all these issues.
Vitaly: How would you say, what would you suggest possibly to folks listening to this in the present day, in the event that they wish to possibly enhance their wage, possibly develop over time, possibly take extra management place? What expertise could be required, and what could be the suitable technique to get the place you wish to be?
Marko: That’s an excellent query. And so possibly from a supervisor place now, I can speak about folks that I had in my groups, and what qualifies a profitable UX designer or skilled normally is, it’s all the time, I suppose people who find themselves capable of manage-up are extra profitable. Managing-up that means that understanding that your supervisor or whoever you report back to additionally has their life and their issues and their completely different, completely different duties. And simply understanding your total setting, it’s main peer-to-peer.
Marko: So the understanding is that if you happen to’re in UX, there’s one other individual on the identical degree in your group in frontend or backend or advertising or undertaking administration. So simply being conscious of who’s above, beneath, on the facet from you and simply understanding that these are additionally folks. After which, what are you able to do to essentially transfer everybody, collectively, ahead? And so that is, I suppose, the perspective, being proactive, one thing that we talked about a couple of minutes in the past.
Marko: Simply not asking for permission as a result of it’s not true that you simply want weeks and weeks to create an idea. Perhaps you may simply catch one thing and say, “Hey…” You get up one morning, and also you don’t essentially should open up your organization laptop computer or something like that. However simply put it on a Publish-it, and when it’s workplace time, you simply can say, “Hey, I’ve this concept. Let’s do that.”
Marko: And that actually price you nothing, I imply, you had that concept anyway. However you’re build up your muscle of producing and speaking, and suggesting. And naturally, it goes with out saying, if you happen to hear crickets each time you have got an thought in your organization, it’s best to simply change the corporate. However when you’ve got an excellent setting and receipting setting the place you may voice your concepts, that’s an excellent place to be.
Marko: And so what occurred is that, when you construct up your credit score and also you appear to be somebody who cares, not essentially in regards to the firm… and I don’t wish to idiot myself considering that folks wish to keep right here endlessly, however caring in regards to the high quality of labor, caring about your teammates, caring about leaving some sort of affect after you allow. And there’s one other subject that we are able to additionally speak about. What do you do while you determine to go away the corporate? So are you that kind of one who thinks about these moments?
Marko: And so after getting that, then wage negotiations are simply easy since you opened up the communications channels, after which you may simply come and sit and say, “Hey, what in regards to the elevate?” After which we are able to speak about that. But when your communication is totally blocked and also you’re simply doing no matter you’re instructed, and also you’re testing the tickets, then that dialog in regards to the wage is simply troublesome since you didn’t actually create an setting the place you have got this dialogue anyway, within the first place.
Marko: So I feel training speaking to your boss, good occasions or unhealthy occasions, and simply not essentially sharing all the pieces that’s occurring in your life, however simply having this extra proactive, I suppose, communication. When nothing’s actually occurring, you may simply drop by and say, “Hey, that is what I’m engaged on. It’s nothing particular, however right here it’s.” After which possibly having this common cadence.
Marko: And if you happen to don’t have one-on-ones, and by the best way, which is one thing that it’s best to have together with your boss… as a result of that cadence in one-on-ones actually permits you the area sooner or later to say, “Hey, I wish to work on one thing else.” Or “I wish to have a greater affect.” Or, “I wish to have a greater wage.” Or, “Hey, I’m truly searching for a brand new job. Are you able to assist me whereas I’m searching for one thing else?” Simply being honest, I suppose, to the folks that you simply’re working with. So that might be my recommendation about negotiating wage and all these issues.
Vitaly: Yeah. I feel that many individuals are scuffling with discovering themselves in firms the place there’s simply no tradition for this sort of suggestions. I imply, in some good firms, you’ll doubtless have possibly 360-degree suggestions or 360-view suggestions, no matter it’s known as, the place you get suggestions from everybody. And then you definately would have a devoted time to carry up any points together with your supervisor as soon as each three months, 4 months, two months, six months, I don’t know…
Vitaly: However that is most likely an necessary half to have or an necessary asset, I suppose, to have a minimum of. I feel that many individuals simply are afraid possibly a bit of bit to ask these questions, to carry this up, as a result of I feel that it’d create a fallacious perspective round them and that they’re there within the firm for the cash alone. However I imply, taking a look at inflation charges occurring proper now all over the world, it’s most likely necessary to have that dialog later or earlier. Proper?
Marko: Yeah, positively.
Vitaly: So possibly additionally build up on high of that, there’re fairly a number of conversations occurring in Europe, a minimum of round salaries. And naturally, everyone’s taking a look at salaries in San Francisco desirous about, “Wow! These salaries. That is unbelievable in comparison with the pay you get in Europe. Even if you happen to’re residing in London or in Berlin, it’s simply a lot, a lot, a lot increased in San Francisco.”
Vitaly: You occur to be in Sacramento, in California, and also you occur to have moved from Croatia to the US, and shared the story about how you probably did that. So now being there, are you able to inform us possibly a bit of bit extra about how completely different all the pieces is for you? So do you’re feeling just like the tradition, the best way firms are run, the best way persons are working collectively that it’s influenced you not directly, stunned you not directly, upset you not directly? What was your expertise total in these 5 years?
Marko: That’s an excellent query. I feel wanting again, what actually was new for me is how folks over listed below are actually centered. Organizations, not essentially people, actually give attention to processes and repeatability of the method. So when you’ve got sure steps, we are able to discuss in regards to the course of… In design, we’ve double-diamond or triple-I or 5-Ds, or design dash or design considering.
Marko: And the explanation for all of that, which isn’t quite common in Europe… In Europe, we’ve an issue and resolution. These are two steps that we’ve in Europe or have had in Europe. However right here, it must be detailed a bit of extra with relevant instruments and a decision-making diagram. So that is completely different over right here. In relation to San Francisco or Sacramento, I feel in Sacramento, what occurs is that we’ve a authorities right here, so I’m not able to match our surroundings within the tasks to possibly the Bay Space, the place there’s quite a lot of simply non-public firms and startups.
Marko: And there’s a begin distinction even right here. A two-hour drive from San Francisco. So I’d even assume, and that is fully my private opinion, that Sacramento is nearer simply to the remainder of the US than to San Francisco, in comparison with Europe. However one other factor that’s actually completely different right here is that the entire communication piece is simply rather more intentional as a result of lots of people are touchdown in California particularly from all around the world, after which you have got a mixture of cultures. And that is one thing that I positively didn’t take into consideration after I was working in Europe, nonetheless internationally, however nonetheless, Europe, which is tremendous tiny, by the best way, as a chunk of land.
Marko: After which we didn’t have so many variations within the sense of simply completely different cultural backgrounds, completely different academic backgrounds, how folks have simply completely different faculty programs within the first place. And so all of those folks come over right here, they’re proficient, they’ve sure abilities; in any other case, they couldn’t make it right here. However then you have got these completely different communication types, and you’ve got cultures which can be simply very usually talking…
Marko: Far Japanese nations have excessive context conversations. And then you definately go extra to the west; you have got low context, which implies that you must all the time reiterate what the final dialog was. Whereas in some cultures, it’s implied. All people is aware of what we had been speaking about within the final assembly. So simply all these, I suppose, communications expertise that we develop now are actually… that was actually eye-opening.
Marko: I feel particularly Croatia for that matter, in comparison with California, is tremendous monocultural. It’s simply unbelievable… That distinction is simply tremendous seen for me now, mowing from one to a different.
Vitaly: Proper. So having moved to the US now, do you’re feeling like at any level you could possibly take into account transferring again?
Marko: I feel so, yeah. That’s not off the desk. I feel what we like right here, my household and me, and this was actually a extra collective transfer, not simply essentially for tasks or work, is the entry to nature right here is simply unbelievable. The best way you may eat nature in California particularly is simply unbelievable. It’s simply geared in the direction of households. And over right here, everyone’s exterior on a regular basis, which is our household type anyway. So these are a few of the enjoyable issues over right here.
Marko: The benefit of Europe is that all the pieces may be very shut. The furthest away is, I don’t know, Spain from Croatia, which is a two to three-hour airplane flight. And, in fact, I can fly to LA to go to Disney Land or one thing like that, but it surely’s a drag to even take into consideration the distances over right here. So these are a few of the variations that we discover. However once more, I wouldn’t say it’s completely different or higher; it’s simply, I suppose, down to each individual’s private preferences.
Vitaly: Proper. Okay. Properly, now, if you happen to truly may suggest one thing to your self while you had been breeding canine again, what? 20, 25-ish, 22 years in the past, while you had been simply beginning out with UX and all of that, effectively frontend and all that… what would you suggest to your self?
Marko: I suppose I’d get pleasure from it extra. I’d pleasure the trip extra. I used to be fortunate sufficient to fulfill actually, actually nice folks alongside the best way. I imply, comparable to your self included.
Vitaly: Oh, that’s very sort of you.
Marko: Yeah. But in addition coworkers and different audio system and simply professionals. I feel at sure factors; I may have loved it extra, I suppose. Simply being extra relaxed and having extra religion sooner or later that issues will work out the best way they really finally did. So I suppose, simply extra persistence.
Vitaly: Okay. That sounds good. So we’ve been studying about UX on this episode of Smashing Podcast. So what have you ever been studying about currently, Marko? Any podcasts, books, TV reveals, something that drew your consideration?
Marko: Properly yeah, that’s an excellent level. And you realize me, I’m everywhere. Proper? So I feel lately-
Vitaly: You certainly are, Marko. You positively are.
Marko: … currently, I’m actually into psychological well being and simply on all ranges. So private degree, household degree, organizational degree. Simply desirous about all the results of COVID, and simply distant versus in-person. That is one thing that I’m actually desirous about, not essentially as one thing that we’ve to cope with proper now, however what would be the outcomes within the years to return? So simply preparing for that, I suppose.
Vitaly: All proper. Properly, I’m very a lot excited to really meet you in individual in spite of everything these years. In 4 days, we’re going to fulfill in San Francisco for SmashingConf San Francisco. That is going to be very thrilling. High quality time, household high quality time, isn’t it?
Marko: Yeah. It’s going to be smashing.
Vitaly: That’s sort. If you happen to, pricey listener, wish to hear extra from Marko, you could find him on Twitter, the place he’s @Markodugonjic. And it’s also possible to test on Typetester, which remains to be kicking and nonetheless round, on typetester.org. Properly, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us in the present day, Marko. Do you have got any parting phrases of knowledge that might be staying with folks listening to this, I don’t know, many years from now?
Marko: No. Yeah. Thanks for having me. That is so thrilling. And I feel the perfect recommendation that I can have is to maintain studying Smashing Journal.
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